Jacques Herzog and Rem Koolhaas, unlikely collaborators on a hotel in New York for Ian Schrager, are in conversation in this month's issue of the Swiss magazine du . Jacques says: 'Some people are probably thinking: 'How can HdM be so stupid as to work with Rem, he's not a real architect, he's a journalist?' And the others will say: 'How can he work with HdM, those cosmeticians?'' Rem says: 'Our creative interest in this cooperation is driven first and foremost by my hope that I will be able to sneak a look at HdM 's secret tricks.' What unites them, apparently, is their distaste for being labelled stylistically - 'In the end we share the butterfly's fate: our hearts are pierced with needles', Rem laments. The poor dears.